6ix On Ice Podcast

What's Next For The Toronto Maple Leafs?

• Win Column Sports • Season 1 • Episode 8

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With the regular season out of the way and the Leafs missing the postseason for the first time in a while, one has got to think: where do we go from here?

We talk about all of that, and more!

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SPEAKER_00

My first one is the Racco Goodis incident, and then it was like I have like backup, like Mason Marchman running stallers. That's exactly. I think that set the tone. Because that happened fairly early on, right? It happened in what October? Yeah, that was like one of the first couple games of the year. And this kind of set the tone for the entire year, entire year. What if the lease actually played like a team and Carlo, I don't know what happened to this player. I just cross-checked Marchman and stuck up for stallers. Maybe this trajectory could have been a lot different.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome back to another episode of the Six on Ice podcast. I am one Anthony, Anthony Carboni, and Anthony William is here with me once again to talk about the Leafs. I mean, it's the playoff time and the Leafs are not in it, as unfortunate for many Leafs fans. And it's it just feels different. It feels different not having a postseason with the Maple Leafs. But nonetheless, there's still lots of news to talk about. I mean, that locker room clean out day, we gotta debrief about that. The GM search continues. The Marleys are doing well in the playoffs. And I want to talk about some moments that we thought were really good and not so good this year and rank them. But we gotta say what's up to Anthony. How are you doing? Let the audience know.

SPEAKER_00

Doing good, feeling a little bit empty inside, and that the Leafs are not uh in the playoffs. But I mean, it is what it is. Hopefully they can bounce back next year. It's uh I don't think we if you asked me the beginning of the season if we would be where we are right now, I would be like, no way. Uh, but such is life, and we will move we will move on.

SPEAKER_02

Our buddies at the uh oil rig are having a blast, at least commentating on one playoff team out of the win call and family. Oh, I mean, yeah, shout out to the Oilers for winning their game last night, pushing it to six, and I think honestly it'll go it'll go seven games, but that's another discussion. But we we're here to talk about the sixth squad, the Toronto Bay Beliefs. So I want to start with the locker room clean out day. I mean, that was a pretty big day, obviously. Like just a few days after losing to Ottawa, the whole team comes together after Game 82 and you know, talking about the season, Ruby coming into comes coming into it with everything that you know has happened, with his name being on like the hot seat for pretty much, I want to say like half the year at least. Austin Matthews being available to the media after like having a season ending injury. Like, what were your honest thoughts? I mean, we did debrief about the Keith Pelley, you know, discussion before, but now seeing that the players and coach were you know present speaking to the media, like what did you think of the locker room clean out there?

SPEAKER_00

For me, two points stood out, Matthews and Riley. I think the biggest thing is when Keith Pelley was talking about how we're not gonna be doing a rebuild and then we have core players like Ne Lander and Matthews. Matthews is like the one player. If he leaves after his contract expires in two years, full rebuild, hands down. For me, in the locker room clean out, he wasn't really clear on his on his future. And I mean it's to be expected, but the fact that he's like, I can't predict the future, there are steps that have to take place. It really feels like the Conor McDavid situation where he signed kind of a short-term two-year, okay, let's do this now, now or never kind of thing. So I think he's waiting to see how the leafs trend heading into next year and his his contract year. I think Ne Liner also stated that he has no real interest in doing a rebuild. So it's uh do or die as the greatest leaf, at least point point score in history. And it's uh we're coming, I think, to the end of that potentially.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, that that like that press conference, like if you're not a like a Lease fan and you like you had confidence in your captain, like you know, yeah, he he really wants to stay with all the reports of him saying like he's willing to stay, like that kind of like just leaves a sour taste in your mouth, considering that he was so vague on the future of of this team. And like the fact that he was just saying, like, oh, like I can't predict the future, like we'll see what happens. New management's gotta make those decisions. You're the captain of your franchise, you're the star player, and you've like said but many times before that you're you know you're committed to this team, and now all of a sudden you're being vague in the uh the pre in the uh press conference for the locker room cleanup day. I just think like that right there, like I've said it for years too, like even like talking with like my friends about it, and it's just like Matthews. Like, I don't know if he can be like that kind of guy in the NHL where he can like lead a team, lead be a captain and be a superstar. Like, we've seen glimpses of him being a superstar scoring 69 goals, but like ever since then, like it's just been a complete disappointment. And you know what? I honestly think like maybe like moving on for Matthews at some point would be like better for the franchise, and that the fact that they might not win with a guy like Matthews and the way he you know shows himself and presents himself to the media and just giving those kind of answers, kind of leaving Lease fans like worried that like their superstar doesn't seem committed, and to me it was just really disappointing to see. So I think maybe the lease would be like would be better on like without him in the next couple of years.

SPEAKER_00

And we'll have to see how he does next year. Next year will be the third season removed from his historic 69 goal season. But is he ever is he gonna score 50 again? Is he gonna score 40 again? Is he gonna be like healthy again? It's kind of a recurring issue. He is very unhealthy or he's not healthy, and he misses a lot of key games. He missed some playoff games. Uh what was it last season, or was it the season before? And it's you're right, he's maybe not the guy to lead the team, and it's kind of a big problem. You're paying him over 13 million a year. And what are you gonna do? We're kind of eerily in the same situation we were with Marner, except Marner had a outclause that we failed to use in his contract. Uh, but with Marner or with Matthews, we're locked in for the next two years. And are we gonna get a good return on investment? Probably not. We're probably gonna lose that trade. Sure, we'll get some dry pet draft picks in futures, but it's not gonna be what Matthews is ultimately worth.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think honestly, like if you the time to trade him would be now if you really want to like reset and kind of retool this team, right? Like, I think you can get a like a fair package, you know, getting a solid defenseman, some picks, maybe a couple like players and build around like Nigel Nielander. I think that could be a better option because I just I don't see Austin Matthews like leading this team anywhere at all, considering like his injury history, like people saying he's gonna break Ovi's record or break Gretzky's record, and the guy can't seem to stay healthy. Yeah, like it's like it you need to be able to stay healthy and you know perform in big moments, and he has not been able to do so. Like Matthews can go down as one of the best players to like never win a Stanley Cup. Like he can be the next Matt Sundeen. Like, would that be a fair comparison?

SPEAKER_00

Probably. Except Sundean was able to get his teams to two conference finals and playing with who was it, Jonas Hogland and a bunch of other no-names. Kind of kind of insane how Matt Sundeen elevated his linemates. And not to say Matt Matthews doesn't do the same necessarily, but the thing the magnitude where we saw Sundeen kind of drag this team through tough moments uh was amazing to watch. Uh, but we have not I've not I've not seen uh Matthews do anything similar. Maybe a few moments here and there, like a flash in the pan kind of thing, but nothing consistent and nothing in a big playoff moment. Like when was Ross when we saw him score like a big overtime goal in the playoffs? I can't really think of one. Has he ever for the Leafs?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, like, what do you think a pack would look like? Like imagine you LA Kings call you and it's like, hey, we're gonna send you Brent Clark, we're gonna send you Quentin Byfield, and maybe like maybe like a couple first round picks or something. Like, or even like the Rangers, we're offered we're gonna offer you Adam Fox first round pick and maybe a couple depth pieces up in our forward group for Matthews. Or even like the Sharks. Like, imagine they get like Michael Mises on like on the offer table, right? Like you never know. I feel like there's a lot the Leafs can do and a lot to play with to bring in the pieces that they're missing instead of having all their money focused on Austin Matthews.

SPEAKER_00

Assuming Matthews wants out, you're right. You kind of alluded to kind of two different packages. I would say the one for the from LA is more kind of a future kind of rebuild kind of package versus something from like the the Rangers is more of a retooling. If we trade Matthews, if we lose our number one center, we have what John Tavares as the number one C, it's it's pretty kind of bleak down the middle, but clearly it hasn't worked with Matthews here. And it's just something has has to change. But on that, uh, the other one that name that stuck out, our other player that stuck out to me in the locker room cleanup was Riley. And it sounds like he might be willing to to move his no move clause. Um he doesn't seem as married to Toronto as I think a lot of fans and media make it out to be. So if Riley for Fox, let's go. It'll never happen.

SPEAKER_02

But best case scenario is Riley goes and waves it to go play for his hometown of Vancouver. I literally cannot see Riley playing in any other jersey other than a Vancouver jersey. What that package can maybe look like, maybe you get Heronic coming back, maybe a couple, maybe even try and get Boyam in there. Like imagine if they get a guy like that. Who knows? But I feel like if the least were gonna find a trading partner for Riley, it would to send him, it would be to send him back home in BC in Vancouver.

SPEAKER_00

I would agree. Um I think we cannot, if we want to seriously, if we want to keep Matthews and Elander and Nyes and everybody, we have to trade some of these core players that have been here for forever, and Riley has to be the one to go. We can't rerun the same core guys and just like put the supporting cast in a blender. And okay, this year we're gonna run with these bargain bin players. This year, these bargain bin players. It's just hasn't worked. And it's we need to change the culture. And we're gonna get into that kind of when talk when we talk about the GM and president uh MLC hiring. But it's yeah, I agree. I I think rileying Vancouver makes sense. And I think if Riley wants to wave at this point, and he's I think he kind of voices frustrations in the clean out, and kind of, you know, he's been here for a while, and it's very disappointing, and you know, change is bound to happen, so it's get out.

SPEAKER_02

For those for those watching like this, these playoffs, like the Eastern Conference teams, like they look really strongly built. And comparing like if these teams come into next season the same, like the leaf stand out chance of making playoffs because all these teams are built so well up, like up, down the lineup, defensively, goaltending, like these Eastern Conference teams have it, and they're like playoffs are like kicking ass. Like they are some entertaining series, like the Montreal Tampa series or like the Boston Buffalo series. Like those are big Atlantic team, like Atlanta division teams, and you know, with the way they're built, it doesn't seem like Toronto right now is built like that. And if they were to get into these playoffs, you probably would have gotten swept just like Ottawa. So there's gotta be some kind of change where they're able to come back into next season and compete with the young teams like Montreal, the young teams like Buffalo and the still you know ripe age Tampa Bay Lightning and even the Florida Panthers, because for me that was a one-off year this year, them missing playoffs. So I think next year for sure they're gonna try and get in for sure. So they really need to like take a long look in the mirror and see like what they need to do and make major moves to at least try and compete for a playoff spot because the Atlantic Division next year is gonna be a bloodbath.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. And it's kind of interesting. When I look at Tampa, when I look at Florida, when I look at Boston, they're not really a young team anymore. They're like kind of around where the leaves are. Um, they have some good young players in the system and they seem to make true trades. And it's kind of sad to seeing that Toronto, this is where Boston, Tampa Bay are, and Florida are right now, is kind of where Toronto should have been. Maybe a Stanley Cup, or at least made it to the finals or the third round at least a couple times with this talent on this on this roster, and we just haven't. And it's just really disappointing. And whoever the GM is is gonna have to make some some bold moves. Status quo is no longer an option with Matthews' clock running out, or his prime years running out running out at the very least, and his contract, and it's yeah, it's things are dire.

SPEAKER_02

Well, based off of like everyone that spoke at the the locker room clean out, like which who do you see like staying and who do you see like going? Like for me, I feel like a lot of these like depth pieces, like I feel like new management's gonna come in and like Yarncorp's gotta go, or maybe even like like um like we saw, we said talking about Morgan Riley, but maybe Brandon Carlo gets dealt, right? Like, like who do you think like stays and who do you think like is gonna be a part of like the next roster? We'll we'll start with who you think's gone. Like, give me just a couple names. You don't have to list like the whole like a whole bunch of them, just a few like big guys that you think were not gonna come back next year.

SPEAKER_00

I think everybody not named Ne Lander, Matthews, Wool are could be could be gone. Like I did obviously run trade the whole team, but I I don't think there's any very few unto untouchables. I think Jan Kroke is definitely gone. I think I read reports that he might be going to Sweden. Um again, just just rumors. It's just this team is so flawed uh in many different areas. It's kind of hard to say anyone in particular is kind of I would say whatever whoever needs to be gone should be gone. Jan Kroke, I think that the bottom six, I mean we kind of trade half of it at the trade deadline with Wall, McMahon, and Lawton. Uh the other half, I'd say maybe Steven Lorenz probably stays. He's kind of seems to be a player that you would want to keep around. But yeah, I I I think Dolmy should be traded. He hasn't really worked out here. Flashes in the playoffs uh three two seasons ago with uh Bertuzzi and Matthews on the top line, but other than that, eh, hasn't done anything. Yeah. So outside of wool, Matthews and E Lander, I think the GM should just be willing to they get a good return. Uh uh, either picks, prospects, or other assets you can flip. You have to make those trades and just change, change the roster.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, a lot of big changes are set to come to Toronto. So we'll see what happens. I mean, the draft is coming up next week with the their chances of you know even keeping their pick being I think less than 50%. So like the Leafs could still what's it, what is it, like 42% or something? It's like four, I think 42 point something, I think.

SPEAKER_00

It's like so I assume that pick's already in Boston's hands, and they're gonna draft uh the future Hall of Famer, and it's gonna tear off Tehran up in the next decade.

SPEAKER_02

Well, you know, like here's the here's what's funny about that. Like they either like don't get that pick or they like draft uh Gavin McKenna and get first overall. Like it could be like that kind of like like it's just very leafy for one of those things to happen. Like, I don't think there's like a middle ground where there's like a safe option, like the Leafs getting like fourth or fifth. They're either gonna like get nothing or get like the uh Gavin McKenna on their team. Like it's actually insane. And if they let's just say like they get let's just say they get the number one pick. Like, do you like I think you gotta draft McKenna there? Like absolutely like you have to. Like, that's probably like number one, like undisputed number one draft pick this year, it seems. And like I just like if you see them, like I think you just gotta you gotta go for it. And maybe you can leverage like trading like Matthews more now that you get McKenna coming up your pipeline. You maybe bring in some guys to like develop him. I don't know. Maybe you have a line of nice McKenna and Matthews or something like that, or something crazy like that, right? So that could be a potential option. Like, what do you think? If would you think they should draft McKenna?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. That is the only case scenario that this season would be a major win, is if we draft McKenna. Uh it's kind of like a uh in a way it's kind of similar to when we signed John Tavares. So Matthews was still a youngish player and then could kind of eventually became Matthews' team. I could see something similar. Matthews leaves in two years to go to a contender or we don't re-sign him for whatever reason. Yeah, it would be essentially be McKenna's team to to run.

SPEAKER_02

What about here's another thing, Connor McDavid and his contract expiring. You know, after all the if they lose to the Anaheim Ducks this year and like in the seven-game series, or they don't go on a magical playoff run, you know, the rumors of him coming to Toronto have always been there. Like, does like McDave, I mean McDavid signing that two-year deal saying, hey Edmonton, I've I'm giving you two more tries, build a good team, and we'll try and win a cup. And win or lose a Stanley Cup, I think McDavid's probably gonna end his chapter in Edmonton. But Toronto seems to be like the the the next favorite spot for probably the greatest player that I've ever watched hit the ice.

SPEAKER_00

Do you think that is an option and do you think that's possible? I mean, anything's possible. I think it would it's gonna depend how the what the Leafs look like in in two years. Right now, if McDavid's looking at the Leafs roster, he's like, is he gonna think, yes, this is the roster that can bring me uh a cup? Probably not. But in two years, wouldn't it be amazing? We draft McKenna and McDavid and we do really well with McKenna and whatever offseason changes uh the new GM makes. Then we get and we land McDavid. So yeah, like Matthews, if you once we sign for a year or two, you have Matthews, you have McDavid, and McKenna, that'll be insane. I I feel that's like a 2% chance or 1% chance of happening. I think it depends on what where the leaves are in in two years. If they actually make it to the third round and they look good in every one of those games that they end up losing or they make it to the finals, and they end up I think it depends how how they lose, I guess, how they how they show up. I think that might entice McDavid to come if he if he wants. But other than that, if it's more of the same first round exits, second round exits, I don't think he he comes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I would have to agree. So the draft lotteries next week, so we're I think I believe so. We're gonna find out where the Maple East will draft, even if even if they even draft in the in the top ten, which you know, the fact that the the Boster Birds could, you know, potentially go to the second round and still uh have uh like the fifth overall pick or sixth overall pick is insane, right? Like that's just insane. But we're gonna have to wait to see what happens there, and you know, obviously the GM is gonna have to make those decisions, which is what we're gonna talk about right now, is like their GM search. It seems that I forget the other guy's name, but Matt Sandine is like definitely like in the organization's radar. They're just waiting for a decision from him because he definitely has been approached, you know, franchise guy, he like mate potential greatest mate belief of all time, other than Matthews. You know, the guy's been like the face of the leafs for the longest time, got in there getting the team to like two conference finals, you know, most goals until Matthews broke it. So he is like they're waiting on an answer from him. And I forget the other guy, but I believe he was the GM of the coyotes at some point, from what my understanding is. Can you touch upon that?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's uh John uh Chakra. Uh Chaka? I can't I'm probably butchering his name. Yeah, I find this is kind of how do I feel about this? I mean he he's interesting, I guess, and he kind of fits, I get Keith Pelley's kind of mold. He wants an analytics-driven person, and that's and that's that's that's that's who he is. He's uh known to be analytics. He has his own firm that he that he founded for uh on hockey analytics, but he also did some kind of shady stuff in his time as general manager. He violated the Angel Combine rules for uh illegal prospects, I guess, assessments, lost them. Also, Coyote's a first and a second. He tried to talk other teams during his employment with the coyotes. There's so many other talent out there, and it seems we're really gonna go for this dude. And it's kind of makes me sad in a way. He seems like a Timu Dubis, to be honest. It seems the person to fire should have been Brandon Shanahan, and we should have just kept Kyle Dubis in hindsight, but so let's bury that, let's repress that line of line of reasoning. It's uh I feel now we don't know what Sunday's role is gonna be. Are they gonna make him the president of hockey of hockey operations? He has what management managerial experience with the 2016 Swedish team for the World Cup of Hockey, if I'm not mistaken. Very, very limited. I just can't see them making him the president of hockey operations. That just seems like too much of a jump for his skill set. Now if they're bringing him in to change the college figure, is he gonna be like the vice president of hockey operations? Or like, I don't know. It just seems they are nostalgia baiting the Leafs fan base. Like, oh, Matt Sandeen, well-legged uh person on and off the ice. Let's bring him in to patch things over, which is kind of funny because they're they're kind of playing everything, everything's under control. We have a plan, and yet they're bringing in Sandine to kind of fix the culture so they know there's a problem. They're just not really admitting to the fans that there is a problem.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but at the same time, it's like you see these teams like Philly and you see teams like Buffalo, like guys that have been in the organization for a long time, like as players, as like you know, longtime coaches, like these guys played. Like I'm looking at Philly, I'm seeing like Rick Talkett, I'm seeing uh Keith Jones, and I'm seeing Danny Briere, all guys that played for the Flyers now being in these big roles for this organization. Look what how the Flyers are doing. A team that nobody thought would make playoffs this year is now you know potentially one like is one win away from the second round. I feel like Toronto needs to like bring in some of those guys. Like reach out to like Tucker, reach out to like you know, Ty Domey, see if these guys want to be a part of the organization. Having these guys in the in like the facid even in the vicinity of the organization, just having some kind of role is real like guys with like who bleed the blue, like bleed the logo, right? I think would like 100% benefit the team. And I would 100% be on board with seeing Matt Sunde uh uh uh taking a big role and maybe even having maybe he takes like the GM role or the president operations role and he ha and Pelly uh brings in a guy who has the like the analytics experience or like, you know, someone that's you know been a GM or assistant GM of another team and bring them together to maybe do something big with this organization.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, 100%. Uh the fact that Matt's wants to be involved is is great. And it's I it's interesting. A lot of the Leafs alumni, so like you mentioned Tucker and Domey, we often see them uh during games in the stands, uh, but we don't really see them on the ice during practices or see them around like the guys, like we do in uh in the other teams that you've you've mentioned, like Philly and even like uh San Jose. I agree. I think they need to really bring in the guys who, like you said, bleed the blue and white, and hopefully that rubs off some uh rubs off on some of these some of these players. It's just for the GM role. I would have liked somebody like Scott White. He's currently the uh general manager of the Texas Stars. Uh has a strong endorsement from the current Stars GM, uh Jim Nil, has more than 20 years experience, experienced in draft and prospect development, running the HL affiliate. Like he seems like a strong candidate, and we're kind of leaning towards this person who's I think his latest work is like managing Wendy's franchises from the possible piece of the Wendy's franchise, all right. I do love me a vaconator. It's uh I don't know, but we'll see what happens. We had so many sagas during the search first. It was going to be uh Doug Armstrong for the longest time, then it was gonna be Mike Gillis, and so who knows? We don't really know what's go what's going on at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02

I think I think Sonny from uh the guy who went to the Devils from uh Florida would have been would have been a great option, you know, winning a Stanley Cup with the Panthers and being a like a hockey fan, like he even said he was a bit grew up cheering for the Devils, like he knows the game just by like cheering for them and then going into the Panthers organization, like winning a Stanley Cup there would have brought that experience over to Toronto, which would have been nice. But that's the thing. It's gonna be a very, very difficult task. The market is very, very, very small for general managers, and you're not gonna find an NHL seasoned one at the moment. You might find obviously like Matt Sundine's an option or maybe some guys in the HL, but it's a very small market, and the Leafs really I mean, they gotta pick soon. They need a general manager to make the draft picks for the uh the draft, right? So within the next couple of weeks, I would assume that they found their the 100%.

SPEAKER_00

And I think it's kind of important that because I I think the longest time they were only going to so when they fired Shanahan, they only wanted the GM to report to Pelly. I think we need some more layers to kind of I don't know if you read the uh the um athletic article about about Pelly and his use of AI and being Oh, I saw I heard about that stuff.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, what was what was going on with that? Like what kind of what kind of person of running a billion dollar organization? You're running the Leafs, Raptors, TFC, Argos, and you're using AI to like help you like figure out the code.

SPEAKER_00

With like trade returns.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, exactly. What are you doing, buddy?

SPEAKER_00

Like, are you doing it? So he's too involved. He's too involved. Too involved. So we need to have a president of hot operations back. Uh, we need to have a GM, obviously. So I think yes, more bureaucracy in this case will be good to keep Helly maybe away from the team and his involvement. He says he's not involved, but he's quite clearly too involved. So, but yeah, it's gonna be an interesting week or two.

SPEAKER_02

If you gotta come out and say, like, yo, I didn't see uh I didn't see Buffalo, I didn't see Montrala coming up the pipeline, like, yeah, you're not involved. Like, you don't know what you're talking about. If you haven't been watching NHL hockey the past like year, year and a half. So for me, Keith Pett, like you I 100% agree with you. Keith Belly needs to step his foot and go maybe look at like the Argos of TFC, because TFC's kind of garbage. So I think you gotta go put yourself somewhere else and get out of the and get because the Maple Leafs on your on their own are like probably like as much, if not like more difficult than handling like the other the other three teams that MLSC is a part of. Like the Leafs are like one of, if not the biggest, like NHL franchises. They're worth the most. So like on the on their own, it's one tough task. So being for him to like bounce back and forth, it's just kind of hard. So you need to find a good a good GM, a good candidate for a GM, and a president of hockey ops that that can handle everything that Pelly was trying to do this year, but failed miserably. So we'll see how that search goes within the next couple weeks. We should see something happen. But I mean, with this new GM coming in, could they replace Craig Barube? In the locker room clean out day, Barube was asked if he sees himself being back. No hesitation. No hesitation. Just like, yes, yeah, I'm coming back. So does Craig Barube like remain the Leaf's head coach? I'll give you my thoughts, but I want to hear yours first. Do you think he remains the head coach the next year? I hope not.

SPEAKER_00

I think if we if we were to keep, say, Trey living and so we kept Shanahan, could be kept both for whatever reason. I think the biggest mistake will be keeping Craig Barube for another year. His system clearly doesn't work for this roster construction. And whatever his system was trying to achieve, they're trying to recreate, I guess, the 2019 St. Louis Blues. We don't have the personnel or the assets to turn this roster into that kind of a team. I think Barube cannot be head coach next year of the Toronto Avaliefs.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, I honestly listen, if they it's tough. It's tough. Honestly, like the fact that they it hasn't been done already, or even like throughout the middle of the season, like kind of indicates that he probably will be back. And him coming into the media, like saying, like, highly confident, like, yeah, I'll be back. And I feel like this is going to be a similar situation with uh Dubis. I remember when Dubis was fired and Shanahan came in, he gave Sheldon Keefe another year to like, you know, see what was happening, feel out the coach, work with him, and then ended up firing him next year because they didn't do so well, right? I think they lost I don't know if they lost, they didn't when did they lose? I think that was Boston. They lost to Boston the next year, or was it Florida? I don't remember. But I could see a similar scenario happening where the next GM like wants to work with Barube one-on-one and like this year and like see for himself like if Barube is really the problem because it's hard to if Barube if they missed the playoffs in their first year with Barube and they were garbage, yeah, I I get that, sure. But like they had a great record in Barube's first year, they won the division title. Like Marner had 100 points for the first time in his like career. They pushed Florida to game seven, and arguably, if they beat Florida, could have won the Stanley Cup. So what like maybe it's not Craig Barube, maybe it's some of these players. And that's where I think the GM's gonna come in and say, listen, like I'm gonna give this guy a chance and we'll see what happens. Because ultimately, if it doesn't work out by Christmas time, you just can the guy and look for someone else. But I just for me, that's like that's what can happen, and that's probably what's gonna happen if it hasn't been done already.

SPEAKER_00

That's a good point. The fact that he's still been around. Um, but I mean we've fired the GM though, so it's kind of like is Pelley gonna make that call on his own? Seems to be wanting to make trade deals on his own, but anyways. I think this has been a recurring theme with this roster, with this team for the last decade. Is it the coaching systems, is it or is it the players? And I think it's a bit of both. Now, we've shuttled the bottom six and the defense around, minus Riley, over and over again. Uh, we still have Matthews and Nelander and John Tavares, and that's great. And and Marner, I guess, uh, until until last year. I think what's more likely is that you can get a coach that can get more out of this roster than trying to use whatever little assets we have left to make this team into a more Berube kind of kind of hockey team. And it's kind of weird because it worked for the first year. The first year they were kind of playing last season, first what was it, first four months, they were kind of one foot in, one foot out. You can kind of see the old Sheldon Keefe kind of hockey, but you can kind of see the Barube kind of elements of the fore-checking and the uh uh being aggressive on the puck carrier. And then as we went through Christmas and then into April when they put on that run to win the division, it was like, wow, this team is actually playing good going into the playoffs for the first time in the in years, and they gave confidence, like, hey, this team might actually do some damage. And to your point, uh, it's kind of interesting. If they were to beat Florida in game seven, where could they have ended up? Maybe they would have gone to the finals. So, but the fact that they had such a showing, a bad showing this season, I think you have to, I think the easier route is just to replace him with like a Bruce Cassidy or even even a David Carl. Uh, but I would prefer a Bruce Cassidy at this point. Uh, Pete DeBoer is was my other candidate, but he's now the head coach of the Islanders. The Islanders took him pretty fast. I'm on I'm on team Bruce Cassidy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I I was gonna bring up for candidates Bruce Cassidy. I mean, he did go out and say that he wants to win a Stanley Cup with a Canadian team, and I feel like his presence would fit nicely on the Maple Leafs. Pete De Boer would have been a great alternative also, but he got scooped up. What if like now what would you think? Imagine, like, you know, they fire Keith and or sorry, um, Barube, and all of a sudden you see Patrick Ward's name come into the come into the uh the headlines. Or I mean John Totorella is like the I guess the vacant head coach for Vegas. Like, what if he like decides to come coach the Leafs? Like, imagine one of those two guys like coming in here and coaching these if coaching these guys. Like, what would you what would your honest reaction be if you get if they fire Barube and they bring in like Water torts?

SPEAKER_00

I think I'd have two reactions. If Bruce Cassidy is still on the table and they willfully go and get Patrick Law or John Tortorella, I would probably be sad. Now, if Bruce Cassidy gets picked up and they bring in like Tortorella, I would I'd I'll be like, why not try it? What can't do much worse, I guess.

SPEAKER_02

Well, assume uh assuming Tortorella doesn't get like rehired by Vegas, I mean, right, they they didn't like extend him or anything. This is just the end of the year. And the I mean if Vegas goes on a run or at least makes it to the second round, I'm sure he's gonna come back and coach for them. But that would just be insane. One guy, I think, before Barube even came in, and this was this was a really important guy, it would have been Joe Quinville. Uh, to have him as the Leafs coach. Like, you see what he's doing with a young team like Anaheim. Unfortunately, I think it was the year after that they reinstated him back into the NHL and then his first year back. I mean, now he's second all time in play uh playoff wins as a head coach, you know. He's just he would have been a great option for Toronto. Like he like, especially like him coaching, like you know, prime Patty Kane and prime Taze, Marion Hosa, Duncan Keith, Brad Seabrook, Corey Crawford, like unreal, man. Like that would have been a great guy to have on your team.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. And I could see it from that from that perspective. I think MLC just wanted to have avoided the landmine. I'm okay not taking Quenville personally, but seeing how things played out with Brube kind of makes me wonder. I'm like, okay, what if we went in a different direction and we took uh Quenville or somebody else and we're running uh like I said, like we discussed earlier, we're running out of time with this roster. We have like for sure two years to at least make the finals, and given that we've looked pretty bad in the second round, the choice that we made in the last decade doesn't really inspire much confidence. I think the narrative around this team would be so different if they made to the third round or if they actually looked good in those defeats against Florida, but there's just really no indication that this team is is going to put it together by the time Matthews' contract is is over.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, exactly. Like if like I agree, if if they didn't lose in such horrible fashion, or if they went to at least the conference final once, put up a good showing in those defeats, then yeah, well, the conversations wouldn't be as like as crazy. But considering like there hasn't been like any like sense of dominance in those rounds, yeah, they went up, they could have gone up 3-0 against Florida, but they didn't. And then in games five and seven on Home Ice, you got blown out. The fact that they haven't been able to like perform in those high, like high elimination scenario games, and you know, even their sharp players going pointless in most of them, especially Matthews and Marner when Marner was even here. It's just been something that has been out on everybody's mind. And yeah, if if they were to perform, I don't think it would be as bad. All these talks of like redo, retooling, rebuilding, blah, blah, blah. But because they didn't do that, that's why we're having these conversations. That's why we're sitting here talking about it. So for me, like that that's what you know could have happened and how it could have led to this.

SPEAKER_00

Hot take. I think my favorite series is probably the Washington Capitol series in 2017. I did not like that young Leafs team laid it all out. I found they tried in every game. They took, what was it, three, four of the six games to overtime? Yeah. And they looked like okay, encouraging. They they played their hearts out, and then year after year is this demoralizing defeat after defeat. So for me, 2017 playoff run, I guess you could say, or spurt was probably the highlight of this franchise in the playoffs, which is kind of sad.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, the young team who made think it was one of the wild card spots playing in division capitals, you know, doing something there was pretty interesting and pushing them to six games, right? But well, we move on. I mean, now we got to talk about some of the upcomers, you know, in the Marley's. Obviously, you know, their playoffs are going on right now, and I believe they made it to the next round, if I'm not mistaken. So they've got, you know, they've got some guys that, you know, could potentially make the team next year. I mean, obviously, some of these guys that are on the current lease roster are gonna like be gone, I would assume, if the GM has, you know, his head out of the sand. But we don't know with some of these guys that come in here. They could like love the personality of the player and like just like you know, just like Keith did with Kerfoot all these years, and you know, kind of guys like that. So, I mean, we're gonna have to see. But yeah, some of these guys that I see, obviously East Cowan. I mean, look at him. He you when he goes back to the AHL, you can just see like the NHL like has rubbed on him and like the experience of him playing in those big games and those, you know, you know, those the fights that he's been getting into, like that he's absorbed all that and he's brought that to the HL playoffs and he's looked great. Bo Jeroo as well. Like, I think I mean the stint he had with Toronto coming up and you know, scoring a couple of goals in the few games that he's played, looking like a he could be a potential like third, maybe even second line center at some point, if some more development, that would be amazing. And then Dennis Hildeby, the pretty obvious, you know, choice. I mean, we uh on many podcasts now we've been talking about how Anthony Stollars should be traded and you can run with Wall and Hildeby, and even the Russian guy coming up, Artemov, I believe is his name. So like just imagine, you know, like you have Hildeby come up and play, and all year that he's played for the leads, he's like he's looked good. Especially like the one game that comes to mind is that Winnipeg game where they were just getting outplayed all game. And his his great effort, you know, brought them to overtime and getting the win anyway. So I think for me, those are the three players that like will probably make the roster next year for sure, especially Drew on that fourth line, and then even having Easton Cowan maybe taking a bigger role in playing like maybe second, maybe even first line across like with Matthews or Tavares.

SPEAKER_00

Agreed. I I definitely think Boguru should be on the on the Leafs roster, is what we saw. I mean, three goals, two assists in 13 games, but I I think he got most of those points in his first couple games with with the Leafs. Um he plays the game how how fans fans like he plays a very tough game. He led the Marleys in scoring with 28 goals, and it's just such a crying shame that Barube took so long just to be willing to play, willing to play him. I guess it was trailed and to call him up, but I think part of the issue is if how do we play more of our prospects, we could kind of see, okay, who could ideally make the roster next year or have a very good chance of making the roster, and then they can kind of build their offseason plans with kind of their prospects of okay, if we don't get this player in free agency or through a trade, hey, we can give this kid uh a realistic look, but they just didn't really play the rookies this year. But nonetheless, I think Bogrew, I think William Villeneuve could also make the roster. Uh, he led the Marlies uh defense in points uh this season, mainly assists, so he's not really, I guess, a goal scorer, but who knows? But he can move the puck, and the Leafs really need a puck moving defenseman uh on the back end.

SPEAKER_02

What about Quillin? Do you think Quillen makes the team next year?

SPEAKER_00

He could? Third or fourth line player now that you don't have Lawton or or Wah? Absolutely. And and then in the games that Brube played him, he looked he didn't really stand out. I mean he looked pretty solid.

SPEAKER_02

Well, how about reuniting the Nielander brothers and like having Alex and out and uh Willie playing together on a line? Do you think we could see that a few times next year, or is it just like out of the air? I mean, obviously Michael Nielander, their father, is kind of like kind of cheese seeing his that one son is doing so well while the other is like kind of not playing any NHL games.

SPEAKER_00

It's kind of surprising with Alex Nielander, right? Because he came from Columbus and he had and he scored what was it, like 18 goals, 15 goals, and it's like, okay, there there might be a player here, and then he just didn't really materialize for the Leafs. It sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss, I guess. Do I think he's gonna B B up? Probably not at this point, to be honest, but it was nice to see. Uh both Ne Lander and Alex uh or William and Alex play together. That was that's that was kind of cool.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, for like the bit that we saw, it was kind of nice to see the brothers play. But it's gonna be an interesting like it's gonna be an interesting offseason, depending on like who they bring in and like who can make the roster next year. Like, they need a GM for the draft. Like, are they even gonna get that fifth pick or draft in the top ten? We don't even know yet. So we're gonna find out next week if they even draft then. But until then, I mean we can just reminisce on this crazy season. Like, do you have any like give me some of your favorite moments, if there were any at all? Like considering how it all went and how it all just played out. Like, do you have anything that like sticks to mind or like comes to mind that you know that you really enjoyed seeing this year?

SPEAKER_00

For me, I think it was Easton Cowan, to be honest. I think he came in the training camp, unsure if he was gonna make the roster. He makes the roster because he showed that he played defense, made it on the third and fourth line. Um, and then he really showed his offensive skill set in the latter third of the season when we kind of traded half of our team and sat half the other half. And so I think seeing Cowan kind of develop that way was really nice to see, to be honest. I wish he would have got more opportunities in the top six throughout the year, but uh it is what it is. So I think for me, Easton Cowan was how how he developed, started on the third and fourth line, and then kind of grew more comfortable playing uh playing against men.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, I gotta I mean there's a lot of like disappointments, but I I will I will give Dennis Hildeby credit. Like, I think that guy's gonna be the franchise goalie in the next like couple years, because I don't know if I can really trust Wall with his injuries and you know all the stuff that's happened with him. Like Dennis Hildeby has proven like like I don't think he had a bad game this year, and if he did, it was pretty much on the team who didn't play defense in front of him. So I would I would give Dennis Hildeby like my highlight, and I would agree with you on the Easton Cowan as well. I want to talk about some disappointments I mean there were many, but for me, the first one that comes to mind is the response for Austin Matthews and Anthony Stollars earlier in the year as well. Like that's kind of what started everything, eh? I don't know if like if you kind of like picked up on that, but if since like you know, stole like nobody defended their goalie and stolars called out the team, like it's kind of just like like you did you just say that to me? Like I've we we've never been like talked to like this before. And like it just it just rubbed on the whole team all year, if you if you ask me.

SPEAKER_00

Agreed. And that's what I have in my notes. My first my first one is the Racco Goodis incident, and then it was like I have like backup, like Mason Marchman running stallers. That's exactly. I think that set the tone because that happened fairly early on, right? It happened in what October? Yeah, that was like one of the first couple games of the year. And this kind of set the tone for the entire year, entire year. I again, what if the lease actually played like a team and Carlo? I don't know what happened to this player. I just cross-checked Marchman and stuck up for stollers. Maybe this trajectory could have been a lot different. Who knows? Hard dependent on one exact moment, but it's um yeah, this team's lack of response in in big moments, both performing and pushing through and moving on in the playoffs, but also to like these kinds of moments with uh the Raccoon Raku uh good disney on Matthews and Stollers being run repeatedly in his time here in Toronto. Yeah, it's uh really crappy.

SPEAKER_02

I think I think another like crappy moment, I mean, they lost to like a lot of their divisional rivals. I think not beating Ottawa this year at least once kind of like stings a little bit, like losing to your Ontario rival, especially in like some of like the games, like especially that last game where they were just like outplayed like crazy by a team that doesn't seem that they're much better. Like just seeing some of these games that they've played in the final stretch where they're just getting like ran out of the building, and like they still have those guys, like Tibbars was playing like Nice, like Neilander, like they just look so bad. Like I've never seen the Maple Leafs look this bad in a very long time. And like, you know, losing to Ottawa, like knowing how their fans are, is kind of disappointing as well. Not even being able to win one game this year.

SPEAKER_00

It begs the question to kind of loop back to your Barubay locker room cleanup where you said, yes, I'm gonna be here next year. If you had the confidence that you were gonna be back, why wouldn't you have sat Matthew Nyes, who's been injured all all season? Why wouldn't you sit John Tavares, who'd probably need some rest? You know, just I think he was auditioning for his next NHL job, and he'll he'll get he'll get hired again, no doubt. But I I think it's just yeah. I I I think not beating uh the divisional rivals and not really looking good against really any of them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, like I'm trying to like think about it. Like they lost, I think they played the Habs four times. They lost three of them besides the home opener. I think they I did they beat Detroit at all? Like I think Detroit swept them all year too, if I'm not mistaken. Uh Boston. I don't I don't think they beat Boston. I think they beat Boston in overtime, if I'm not mistaken. I think they beat Boston once. Buffalo they beat once. Like I mean, it said Ottawa, Florida.

SPEAKER_00

I have it. I have it here. So they went one two one against the Sabres, one one oh against the Bruins, zero two one, you were right, against uh the Red Wings, two and two against the Panthers, one two against Montreal. And then Ottawa. It says one, two, and oh against the Senators, but I don't think we beat the Senators.

SPEAKER_02

I don't I don't remember what if the Leafs beat Ottawa. I think that's I think that's a mistake here. Point is they struggled against their their rivals. Dude. Like, and that's that's that's something you can't you can't do. If you're gonna lose games, like yeah, you can lose that's the thing. But go into like ball arena in Colorado this year and like take out the number one seeded avalanche in overtime, right? But like but like you you can't even beat like Ottawa in your own barn. Like, how does that make any sense? How are you losing all your games to Ottawa, but you can like come beat Colorado? Just like it just like like blows my mind. Or you go into Minnesota off like the second half of a back-to-back and like beat the wild after they got Quinn Yoes. Like, but you go and lose to like the Red Wings, who can't even make playoffs in 10 years. It just doesn't really like it's just very leafy. And the fact that that is even a term, like just goes to show like things need to change. Like say, imagine saying, like, oh, that was that's very leafy of them to like choke and then come back or whatever it is. What kind of reputation is that to have as like one of the most historic franchises of of all time? All these guys that used to play are probably rolling in their graves right now, like just seeing like the these guys play. It's just no heart, no nothing. And even in the final stretch, just getting like losing like every single game, not winning it, not winning one game in their last like eight or ten games, it's just brutal.

SPEAKER_00

Agreed. It's whoever they hire to be GM, it's gonna be a hell of a mess to clean up. It's not only do you need to make roster changes where you have a lot of guys who have no move clause or no trade clauses, you need to make this team, get this team to make the playoffs. And uh, we just discussed, our division rivals are looking pretty good in the playoffs, and we're not, and we can't seem to beat them in the regular season. So playoffs are different, obviously, but still just seeing Buffalo, um, Montreal kind of just rise and continue to rise year after year, and Toronto just going down, down after every year, it's uh it's gonna be tougher.

SPEAKER_02

I want to ask one more question. I want to ask, give me your way too early like season predictions for the Leafs. Like, where do they finish? Do they finish in a playoff spot? Like we know nothing. We know nothing of what's gonna happen in the offseason. Just give me like fast forward a year from now, are they are they in in the first round of the playoffs? Like fighting in a game five or six right now?

SPEAKER_00

I think they're gonna are they're gonna be in a wild card spot, to be honest. I don't think they're gonna be um as high in the division, and to be honest, as Florida showed and was the last last season, actually, they just got in and then they they won the show. I but I I think they're gonna be a a wild card team. I think they're going to struggle to find their air, their uh identity, like they seem to struggle every year. Uh I think it's gonna be a new coach. I hope it's a new coach, but it's just going to be uh it's gonna be a struggle. I think I think they ultimately do get in. I think there's too much talent on this roster. Keep in mind we had a lot of injuries this year. Losing Tana was huge on the back end, and he was out for pretty much the whole whole season, a large chunk of the season, anyways. We weren't without our what starting goaltender and stolers to start the year. So I I think they make the playoffs, but I think they're gonna be a wildcard team.

SPEAKER_02

I would have to agree with you. Or they just barely make like they barely miss. They're like gonna be in or they're gonna be in by a little bit or out by a little bit. I think Tampa, Montreal, uh, Buffalo are probably gonna be those those top three positions again. Florida's gonna come back into the frame. Ottawa's always sniffing their nose around the the the wildcard, and maybe it was just a one and done for Boston. Like, who the hell knows? And even Detroit, like Detroit's deaf like changes will happen in Detroit. So maybe something big will happen there. But if you ask me, there's not really a bad team in the Atlanta division heading into next year. There's no team that there's no rebuilding squads in the in the in the Atlanta division. Like, think about that. Dude, when when was the last time we saw that where every team wasn't in a in a rebuild? There no nobody is. Nobody's in a rebuild. Like five of these teams have made playoffs two years in a row.

SPEAKER_00

I I think out of all the teams, I think Toronto was the closest team to be kind of going the fly. Right?

SPEAKER_01

And they just and they just almost beat Florida last year in game seven. It's insane.

SPEAKER_00

I will say this. Like, I know we've been kind of crapping on the leaves, but I think what gets kind of lost in this narrative, and it's not really, I guess, a good argument, but the Atlanta division is probably one of the harder divisions to to go through. And yeah, you have to go through good teams to make it to the playoffs, but okay, you beat Tampa Bay, then you're playing probably Boston or Florida, and then you're playing either Carolina. Like it's just I don't know. It's I think something has to be said about the quality of competition. Maybe I'll run the analytics on that because I'm kind of curious now. But it's uh yeah, there's no bad teams. And and the in the Atlantic, it the race was like tight for like the whole season. Usually by January, February, you kind of know, okay, cool, these are gonna be the teams that are gonna make the playoffs, but it was like insane.

SPEAKER_02

In January, Detroit was leading the Eastern Conference. Yeah, like think about what can happen in the span of three months. So at the end of the day, it's a waiting game. It's a tough division. You gotta be able to win these games, and that's where we're gonna see where the heart of these guys is, the core guys. Can they compete with all these other teams who are trying to compete? That's where we're gonna find out next year. The GM should be higher within the next few weeks. The draft lottery is coming up next week. Keep your eyes peeled. We're gonna see if they either keep that pick or lose that pick or draft Gavin McKenna. All of these scenarios are possible in Leafland, and we are all here to see what happens. Hopefully, you guys enjoyed this episode of the podcast. Leave a like, subscribe, tell your friends, check out our articles on the Six On Ice uh website. Our producer Greg will put that in the description, hopefully, in this video. And is there anything you want to say before we sign off?

SPEAKER_00

It's gonna be another chaotic off season, and I'm here for it.

SPEAKER_02

We are all here for it.

SPEAKER_00

We'll see you guys on the next one. Take care and peace.