Tre Leaving: Leafs searching for a new direction

Anthony and Greg discuss the state of the Leafs, from the vacant GM spot to the path forward

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is probably a little unfair to paint a whole decade with the same brush, but life happened to the leaves, you know, just like Gudus springing their faces after dummying camp in the corner. The leaves just waited and waited and waited for until life happened to them. They didn't go out and and make it happen.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

The burst coming up.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Welcome to another episode of the Six on Nice podcast. Uh I'm one half Anthony. The other Anthony is Oatsick. So today we have filling in uh Greg Babinsky.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Greg, how are you doing? I'm always happy to be the emergency backup host, Greg, otherwise known as eBug. That's one of my favorite places to be. Uh yeah, no, and I'm I'm happy to be here talking about the Leafs with you. There's so much to get into from on the ice to off the ice. So there's probably a lot of opinions percolating inside our heads and a lot of things that we're hearing from everyone around us that knows about the leaves, and a lot of explaining to everyone who doesn't, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

I feel like you're watching this episode, you're pretty much a diehard leaf fan as it is. You're actively seeking out content uh to confirm or push back against your views. But uh on that note, uh the Leafs vs. Ducks game, that's the start here right off the bat. Uh heading into the game, uh, there was a lot of talk about uh Gudis and how Gudis was injured or has gone through an injury and he was still gonna play because you know he had to do the do the right thing. And uh probably the most anticipated game for me, anyways, of the season, just after how the Leafs handled it, or didn't handle it at all, rather, um two weeks ago when they when they played. Uh so right off the bat, uh opening draw, face off, Domi and Gudis. Uh, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Oh, well, I mean, it's probably the wrong, wrong place to express these opinions. Gudis is such a such an interesting character in the NHL. This this dichotomy between like his off-ice um comportment and his on-ice comportment. And obviously, it's not even the first kind of incident here with the leaf, so it's I remember vividly him screaming in our faces as a Florida Puther. Yeah, and and crushing camp after the whistle. Like, what are you gonna do about it? So I it's I mean, it's the same old song and dance, obviously. And to see it some kind of response and very highly anticipated and fateful game with the Rad Shoe Living firing before it, it's like the stage was set, and I I I'm I think it's it's good that it was domey. I think it's good that they did something.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

I mean, it's it's obviously a bit dege at the end, uh at the end of the day. I mean, there it was a good response, but that response would have been better two weeks ago when it really mattered most. And um and I mean the whole game, the least were were chippy, like especially Pizzetta. Uh, he was actually later thrown out, uh, which is is kind of kind of interesting. Um what struck me kind of uh what struck me the most was that uh Paris announced that he's gonna be attending the game. And I just find that kind of interesting. Uh you give a suspension for five games, don't even give it an in-person hearing. But what are you by you announcing your attendance? Are you gonna say play nice fellows? Like I don't, it just seems a weird move to make. I know he's done this in the past. Uh, like then that's some of the Tampa and Florida games where those get really heated, they just uh the Panthers seem to hate Hegel uh with every fiber of their of their being. But I don't know. Do you think that might have tempered the least response having George Parro's uh in attendance? Uh no.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

I mean, it's just it's all like this conjecture, conjecture, and theater and oh, I'm gonna show up, oh, it's gonna do this, do that. I think really like there's lots to be said about maybe some bias in the Department of Player Safety or how effective they are currently in general. But I think what's most important is this team on the ice um showing a bit of character. So it was it was nice that it was more than just Domi who was angry. It was nice that it was more than just right off the start of the game. It's like they were angry all night, and that's good. That's good. It might be two weeks too late, it might be ten years too late, it might not be enough, but at least for one night. At least for one night they did it, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

I mean, since we uh last filmed our last episode, uh the leaks are 3-2-1, and they can't seem to pick one mode. They're not, I guess they're mid really. They they are unable to uh tank effectively because they're not quite that bad, and but they're also not good. They're gonna miss the playoffs. I mean, for me personally, I know the argument's for tanking, uh, but I don't think we're passing uh, what is it, the Cnucks, Chicago, Calgary, Vancouver. Oh, sorry, I just say Vancouver. Who was the other team? Uh St. Louis. Like I don't think we're gonna be able to pass any of them. I think there's a the there's the draft lottery. I think we need to have more games like the Ducks, where you're showing character, and this has been something that has plagued this roster throughout the Matthews era is that nobody shows character. It's always one or two guys. It's Michael Bunton, it's Domey, but this you're right. The in the Ducks game of everybody, McCabe was chippy, Pizzetta was chippy, Calvin was chippy, it's just yeah. I I feel it's what they should do. They should really work on kind of fixing this quote unquote culture. Um, which I mean, I guess with the Brad Trail Living Firing, which we'll get to momentarily, uh, is the start of it.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Yeah, I think I think it's the the big thing in the room is this is now vacancy at the GM position. Uh and more so where it goes from here. Obviously, there was the at least press conference, and how much are we trusting his vision of the team? Um, but there's just so much to get into. And in from my opinion, like it may maybe even starts with like what's realistically uh possible given the state of the team. Um because I know that some people are, oh, it's time to like completely blow it up. Um and that's the quickest way forward. But it doesn't make sense to be bad if you don't have your own first-round picks. So I I don't think as much as maybe I think that it's important to go in a completely new direction and start over or whatever you want to say. It's not practical to even do that in the next two to three years, really.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

I I think, and this is what Pelly kind of uh mentioned in his presser that we're retooling, we're not rebuilding. We have foundational pieces, Matthews and Kneelander. Uh Matthew's contract is up in two years. If he leaves, if he goes to a cup contender or he goes where wherever, uh at that point, I think you might have to seriously consider rebuilding. Uh but by then we'll have our first round picks back. Uh either we give up this year's and next year's, or we give up uh the next two years if we somehow make it in the bottom five. So I I think at that point, if Matthews doesn't want to stay and uh yeah, absolutely rebuild and please don't wait like a decade to to make that decision between like oh three and and then twenty fifteen. It was just years and years of just mediocrity. Uh but so Trail Working has let go. Uh his record as the GM for the Leafs, 139 wins, uh 92 losses, and 27 uh overtime losses. Um decent record, I guess, but obviously it's much, much more uh nuanced than than that. Uh do you think this firing was at the right time? That they should have did it earlier in the season. What's your what what's your take on it? Like why why now?

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Yeah, it's uh it's a tough, complicated question, I guess. Uh I think definitely it was time. I think that um I think it's important to acknowledge that uh as much as it's terrible right now and it looks like the Leafs will be they look very direct directionless and like it's gonna be very difficult to turn things around. Um that last season was technically the best season that the Leafs have had in the Matthews era, um, in terms of winning the Atlantic division, in terms of like making it to a game seven in the second round, it's said. Uh marginal improvements, obviously, but still notable that their best season of the Matthews era happened under True Living. Um and yet here we are. That's really speaks to how big of a mess um the team is in right now. Um it speaks to yeah, just a lot. I mean, it's hard to ignore what True Living did in Calgary and how similar this might feel to that. Uh yeah, and it and it's bringing into focus just a lot of like questions about what makes a good GM and what is a good direction, and maybe recontextualizing some of the work of the people who were here before. Like people are clamoring for a Shanahan like president now, and it was just two years ago where we were talking about, oh, what has he achieved? What is this era of entitlement? So it's hard to know like what is gonna make a good GM. What how do you really define success, especially when you don't win any Stanley Cups?

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Um or they're or at the very least, make it to the third round a couple times. Uh it's just it's just been constant uh failure. It's it's not like they they were hard fought losses, it's just it was just like a systematic like dismantling in every key situation. Um I think for me, MLSC waited a little bit too long to to move off of trail living. I mean, if you want to get into it, I think they should have moved off of Barube in December and they didn't. And and we can we're gonna talk about Barube at the end here. I I think if you were to move off of Barube, you get a new coach in, you could possibly still turn the season around and we'll be having a completely different conversation than we than we are right now. I think the fact that Trey Living waited uh between like July 15th, uh 2025, uh to the trade deadline to make any significant roster uh changes is just unfathomable. Uh I think he I think he picked up like three waiver pickups, and one of them was Troy Statcher, which was a very good pickup. But the leafs were in free fall from really from the opening night onwards, but noticeably from December, and you he didn't do anything. And then when you get to the trade deadline, the trades weren't the best. So I think for me, I think that kind of sealed the deal that this this person is just just doesn't have it for for the team.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Yeah, well, I mean, this team, like this iteration of the team, failed in exactly the ways that they were not supposed to. They were built to be a big physical defensive team, and they're terrible at defense and they don't stand up for each other. But this whole era has been defined by a lack of imagination, by a lack of uh making a bold move in a in a sense. This is probably a little unfair to paint a whole decade with the same brush. But life happened to the leaves, you know, just like Gudus springing their faces after dummying camp in the corner. The leaves just waited and waited and waited for until life happened to them. They didn't go out and and make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

They're more proactive, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Yeah. So and I and we'll see. I think it's gonna take a lot of proactivity probably to to get this back on the rails. I think yeah, how how you do so is lined with a bunch of ifs and maybes. It's a really narrow path to to actually um getting any better. Uh but they're gonna have to try. And uh they really the way I see it is the Matthews contract, like this time last summer next summer is gonna be when you really have to decide on Matthews um whether you're gonna extend him or whether you're gonna trade him. I mean, I guess the worst case is he walks for nothing. Um but you have basically next season to like kind of get this era back on the right track, if that's even possible. And then you really start having kind of tough conversations of like, do we want to start a rebuild with Matthews at 30? You know, sign to a new contract. Is that is that the pro is that the prudent thing to do? Especially we'll see how they finish. There's a lot of projecting, but this next season is hugely important. And if you're gonna trade Matthews instead of letting him walk, you need to have like just a clear, open line of communication with him on like where he wants to go. You can't be holding out for the best package. You have to be like, Matthews, if if you want to go somewhere else, just tell us. Tell us where you want to go. You want to go to LA, whatever it is. Like, but you need complete honesty. So whatever happens next season, they're obviously gonna try to get it back on the road. You got one year to kind of figure it out, and then you have to be decisive. You have to be decisive. Um that's that's the way I see this GM, whoever they're gonna hire is like, you need you need to figure it out in that year, really.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

No, this is this is very similar to to Mitch Marner. I mean, more more time this time to be up about a year, but Trey Living was brought in when Marner had, I think, six weeks before his uh no trade clause kicked in. And I mean, you could probably still make a trade with that. Uh, I think personally, I think Shanahan was kind of still pulling the strings. Uh, when when Dubas was let go, uh he was he hinted that he's gonna trade either Marner or Nelander or both, possibly both of them. And uh Shanahan allegedly phoned the core four at the time, said nope, everybody's staying, don't worry. But you're right. I think this is gonna be the critical year. If the Leeds can turn it around, uh, they can actually go on a deep playoff run for the first time in this era and actually look good every single game. Uh, I think that'll be very encouraging for Matthews to resign. And in Matthews' defense, he was he was asked, hey, if we were to be sellers at this trade deadline, would you be okay with that? And he said he's okay with it. I mean, what is he going to really gonna say at that point? But um I for me, I wonder who they're gonna bring in. Uh, from the Keith Pelley presser, it sounds like they want to hire a president. And they the GM candidate has to have an understanding of data. They have to be analyti analytics-oriented, evidence-based decision-making. I mean, when Pelly was saying that, the first person that popped in my mind was Cal Dubas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yeah. And Dubas, well, I think was a really proven to be a really good GM. I mean, that doesn't mean that it wasn't the right time to move on from him, for example. More than one thing can be true. Um but yeah, it's definitely someone that comes to mind. And I I do agree that it's got a it's good to have like maybe an old school hockey person as the president and maybe a new school kind of more um outside the box thinker as as the GM. That does seem to have a nice ring to it, at least.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Who do you uh want to fill the president role if they when they go out and make a decision who's the first who's somebody to come to mind?

SPEAKER_01 17:06

You know, like it's funny because uh you were talking about oh, that sounds like Dubis. It's oh that sounds like Shannon. That sounds like Shanahan. Here we go just running in circles. And I I mean, I I don't know who I would want it to be. I guess like traditionally, organizations will find former players to be in that role, someone who really is personally invested in the fabric and identity of the team. So you could say, oh, maybe it's Sundine or maybe it's Clark. Or I think you're probably looking for someone, an ex-leaf, in all honesty. Um Toronto, you could say, oh, you could have any player that is from here or grew up a Leafs fan. It's true. But I'm not I'm not really that concerned on who it is more than like what needs to happen to for this to work out, you know. Uh obviously May 5th is gonna be huge, the draft lottery, figuring that out because it's a really awesome top ten. And if you were picking somewhere between six and ten, you would probably be getting an amazing defenseman. And the Leaves desperately need um what what was it, foundational pieces on the back end? Because right now it's a bunch of older guys who, you know, in two years might not even be playable. Um that and and you got like Dan Danford and maybe like uh some hopes and prayers on the way. Um so yeah, it's um I think figuring out a way to build a good blue line. If you talk about the big trains of the of the sabres and the halves and the red wings, these young teams that are on the rise, and the senators as well, like all of them have multiple foundational pieces on their blue line.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

We're talking it's almost like these teams didn't spend all their money on four really good forwards. Who would have thought?

unknown 19:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

I mean unless the Luis finish within the bottom five, their pick is gonna go to Boston. So yeah, you're right. It's probably gonna be a very good player. Probably is very realistic of probability that they finish like ninth or tenth in the league, and Boston's gonna get a decent player.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

I have a few favorites projected in that range, and I can see it already. Like Carson Carroll's in a Bruins jersey.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Just reminds me of the uh what was it, the Phil Kessel trade? This Tyler Sage and Dougie Hamilton, and oh my god, just well I said always Boston, it's always Boston. I know.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

It's terrible.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

It's terrible. But again, this kind of just goes to show trade like Trey Living just waited way too long. Uh he didn't get really good a good return for McMahon or Lawton, especially Lawton.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Um the McMahon one is killing me because I'm just getting Zach Hyman kind of flashbacks. Like yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

But they're all scoring goals. They're all looking really good. It's it is an indictment, I feel, on trail loading. He just waited way too long. He didn't get what he the return that he should have gotten, and he he just panicked. And similar to when he made the trades the first time for Carlo and for Lawton, he just panicked and it just didn't didn't turn out. Now, for me, the Lawton and Carlo trades, I thought I thought at the time they could work out. They seemed kind of reasonable for the release were, but for me, what when is the nail in the coffin was the fact that Trey Living just didn't adapt. He just was like paralyzed throughout the whole whole season when Carlo allowed uh Mason Marshman to run in the stolers, didn't have a response. And saw it again with Gudis and Matthews. It's just he waited too long to make to pivot. And that's just that's just unacceptable, in my opinion. So whoever they bring in, bring in next, um if it's gonna be an old school hockey day hockey guy, is it gonna be a Kyle Dubis kind of general manager? I don't really care. I just need somebody to take action. Less lip service, more action kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Yeah, yeah. No, it's uh yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be a tough. I think yeah, it's gonna be just really interesting. I think if I'm trying to imagine like a best case scenario, something you said about the players that traded away thriving elsewhere is like it happens sometimes that when a coach kind of has lost the room, people are gonna have down seasons. Um so you're definitely expecting that. That's part of the bounce back is a new coach re-energizes the room and you start seeing some better performances. Um, or just anyone having a career season would be nice, you know? So uh I think that's gonna be a huge part of it. I mean, the pick we'll find out. Obviously, it would be huge to get a top end talent at this point. I think about um early on in McDavid's career, the Oilers struggled and they ended up with some top picks, and some of them maybe didn't work, like Broberg how they wanted to, and then but they also got Evan Bouchard as a top ten pick. Like it happens before that you can kind of supplement your team with like a bad season like this, but obviously that's only if you have your own pick. Um so we'll see. There's a small chance that they could be adding a a huge talent this year and new coach bounce back and a healthy Tana. But there's just and I would say like the other thing that probably has to happen is taking gambles on younger players. In the last year or two, we've seen Trevor Ziegris moved for not that much because people didn't believe in him. Just like maybe we saw another really high draft pick, Sam Bennett, move for not much when he was struggling in his career. Um, we also saw Bowen Byron uh moved. And now Zegris and Bennett and Byrum, they're excelling on their new teams. Um I think you have to try to find one or two reclamation projects like that, where everyone's down on them now. Maybe it's like David Irichek in Minnesota, where like uh people might be giving up on a formerly high pick, and you kind of swoop in and give them a new chance a new in the league and it and it pays off. I think hitting on uh in investments like that will be imperative. Um especially with such a thin free agent class and not many assets to trade, like you gotta you gotta walk the tightrope tightrope, you know?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

And that's one of the things Pelly said in his press conference. We need to acquire more draft picks and prospects. And yeah, we hired a couple NCAA prospects. They seem promising, but prospects are still just in a way magic beams at the end of the day. You don't don't know what you got, and it's gonna take multiple years for them to to actually develop. Uh and and you're right, this free agency class this this offseason is is horrible. Horrible. So the GM, the new GM has his has his or her work cut out for them. It's it's going to be interesting. Um it's not like the Leafs are kind of just starting their window. They're near the end. And it's uh they they need to hit some uh some home runs. Yeah, they need to get lucky on some reclamation projects, they need to just start playing like a team, uh willing to die for one another. I mean, I think I've been we've been spoiled with like the Blue Jays, just seeing like the the guys on the bench and how they just like literally play their heart up for one another. You can go through Florida, Tampa, Boston, uh, even San Jose, uh just seeing with like Celebrini and and and everybody there. We don't see that with the Leafs. We haven't really ever seen that with the Leafs. It's always been like one or two character guys, but like the very like I just don't know how you fix this in an off-season where the UFA class is weak. You don't have any picks, you have some prospects, I guess, but not enough to really entice big changes. So what do you do?

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Yeah, no, uh, it's really thin, really thin margins. But I think something that you said earlier is definitely part of the equation as well. And it reminds me of like maybe the the the Raptors as well, a story of how they kind of came together and and went from like uh in the early 2010s from a team that was just always on the ropes and they kind of looked at each other and said, No, we're in this together, we're doing it for each other. And that's really when the franchise started to turn itself around. Um, I think you're gonna need that spirit. And that's why I think some things that we want to hit on today, like Cowan showing a lot of jam, is huge. Uh, because Matthews and Nylander, they're not enough on their own for this team to be in. There's gonna need to be more contributors like Nice and Cowan, and those contributors need to have a better attitude than this team has had in the past. So to see kind of like such a strong response from Callan um i is huge, and that is gonna need to be infectious throughout the whole team of like of of coming together, um of of being different culturally, and that culture that you know the Bruins seem to always have and the Leafs seem to never have. It's like at some point, no matter what rebuild or draft picks or retool or reclamation projects, at some point the answer's gotta come from within the room, from within the team, from within the spirit. Um uh like that that's the big thing. So I think if you're looking for positives, something like this kind of really impassioned uh stretch of play from Callan is like one of the big reasons for optimism. You get that new coach bump, a few gambles, and you start to actually kind of build that culture, however it happens, whoever is a part of it, it's yeah. I think that is the other main thing. And how how do you do that for them? You can't, you know, they have to do it for themselves. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

On one hand, I feel kind of sad in a way that we are pinning a cultural change on the shoulders of a what 21-year-old Easton Cowan. Uh it's a shame that Matthews or Nylander or Riley just don't seem to have that, I guess, dog in them. It just really, it again, I look at Celebrini, I look at Nathan McKinnon, McDavid, even Sidney Crosby, uh still uh just they just have that compete. And these Matthews and Nielander don't really seem to they show flashes, they show flashes of brilliance, but they just don't seem to have that consistent tone-setting kind of attitude that you would expect from your uh as as P as um Keith Pelley said, your foundational pieces. Uh so for you then, is Cowan an untouchable piece? Or if you get a good package for Cowan, do you do you ship him out of town?

SPEAKER_01 28:56

I don't think anyone on this roster is untouchable. I think that's probably five years too late to say that. But it's true. And and that's I think one of the reasons why the Bruins have culture and the Leafs don't, is because they look at players as like you can't be bigger than the team, no matter how talented you are, Phil Kessel or Tyler Sagan, we're gonna try to do what's right for the Bruins, the team, always first, first, first. That kind of like that is exactly so I don't I don't think you can get say Cowan is an untouchable. I I think that'd be incorrect. I think that he should be a big part. And you know, it's maybe not fair to say, hey, this rookie is gonna be a leader on our team, but why not? I mean, we're seeing that around the league. Like he was picked in the first round for a reason. He was OHL MVP for a reason. Like he's in the show now. It's it's not too early. It's it's time. And we can have some patience with him and like, yeah, sure, maybe he didn't produce like a top six forward this year, but maybe he can, you know. Maybe he can next year. That's fine. Maybe he's not like known as like RC Tucker right now, but like there's no reason why he can't be the emotional leader for this team uh in the future. And I think to see him trending in that direction is not too soon. It's it's exactly the right time. It's exactly the right time.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

No, that's a very good point. I think the way in which Cowan was utilized this year by Barube has not been very, I guess, optimal to his strengths. Cowan is quite clearly a a top six player. Um I went to the Ottawa game uh and they were they lost 5-2. It was just a horrible piss poor effort all around. But you could see Cowan's playmaking ability, just passing how he passes the puck in tight to John Tavares for for his uh what was it, his 26th goal of the season, if I'm not mistaken. Um, you get to see his offensive creativity, it's there. Yet Barube seems to be content with playing him like eight to ten minutes in the bottom six. And I I get that. He made the team out of camp for his strong two-way play. Excellent. Um starting him on the fourth and third line, cool, but you need to give him more opportunities to uh develop his skill sets. He is he has the potential to be much more than a David Kampf or a Cali Yarncroak. I'm like no disrespect to those players. It's just his skill is a little bit more like a higher end than that. And now we're seeing with all the injuries and the trades that he's on like the first line with Tavar as a knee lander. Uh, but I think that's and he's like flourishing. Uh but I think we might have stunted his development a little bit this year uh by continuing continuing to scratch him and play him lower in the lineup than than we should have.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Yeah, I guess like maybe you could nitpick, but i if he's showing progress, I'm not really gonna complain too much about how we got here. Uh next year, I hope it I hope it's more, obviously. But like it it can it can be frustrating, but like this is how it goes for young players. Like sometimes it's not what you want to see is that continued growth. Like if we're thinking about maybe another like smaller skilled player with an edge, Marshaw, of like maybe that's something that that Cowan can follow in his footsteps because Marshaw didn't come in as like a top-line guy. I mean, he was slowly working his way up, and all of a sudden in his 30s, he starts becoming a hundred-point player. Not that it has to take Cowan that long, but I think just yeah, and and seeing kind of this him come out of this adversity that's not just for himself and his own ice time, but the team itself was in this kind of like identity crisis and he's stepping up, like that's huge. This is it it sucks how we ended up in this moment where he's now relied upon, but yeah, it's it's so encouraging to see how I don't think I don't know, like I'm obviously not gonna expect that he's a point of game player next year. I think that's a little unfair, but I think that he can be a big part of this team's skill and personality for sure next season.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Um it's time and I I think people were looking at Cowan and how productive he or and how prolific he was in in the OHL uh back-to-back MVP, uh sorry, um back-to-back Memorial Cup uh winner, MVP in uh I think his the first uh the first win. Um and they're like, wow, this is the next second coming of Mitch Marner, and very few players are gonna be like Mitch Marner and Neilander's of that air of that ilk. It's um so I think some look at points and oh, he's not developing. It's just like, no, he's he's developing. Uh it's just it's gonna be uh not quite as um it's not good, you're you're not gonna get a Mitch Marner, and I think some some fans were disappointed. But I I agree. I think Cowan brings more than than Mitch Marner, or potentially brings more than Mitch Marner. You mentioned Darcy Tucker. Yeah, I would love it if Cowan could develop into this generation's Darcy Tucker. That would be that would be phenomenal. Um like they they need a couple of players like that. Um sorry. So do you think then that the reason why we're seeing such a fallout this year is is it Craig Barube? Is it is like is all the issues kind of coaching and the team team has clearly clearly given up on Barube um from like November onwards. So in your opinion, do you think is it this is like a coachable, there's a coachable solution that can be I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

I think that like you can like any time that everyone on a team is having a down year, like I don't know, it it's a bad look for for the coach. That's not to say that they can't coach. I think yeah, Mr. Wright and Mr. Wright now are different things, you know. Like we got like you could be a good coach, but if you've lost your team, uh what does it matter how good of a coach you are? So I think you can hope I think you can hope that we're gonna see, because this year, like maybe it was Aklon Larson who had a good season. Like Cowan now, maybe, but like that's probably more to do with development than anything. But who who had a good year? No one, really Nielander, I guess, um in a way. He's always scoring.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

I think our goaltending was our goaltending was like pretty good. It was it went back to kind of I guess average, league average in some on some nights. So it wasn't like lights out exceptional like it was last year. But I think it I think Wool and Hildeby had a had a really good year. Um, all things considering. Um, but you're right, not very, not very many players had had a bit had a really good season. Uh McMahon, but he's no longer on the roster.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

All right. Who knows? Yeah, McMahon I have a feeling is gonna keep um improving, honestly. Um like I think his next two or three years will be better than his previous two or three years. So uh he'll be an interesting guy to watch. Um but yeah, I I think the the blue line is definitely is definitely I'm circling it a whole bunch of like how how is this gonna get fixed or improved? And like especially it seems like Riley might get traded. It's like I get that maybe people want that, but it's the unfortunate reality that we might also have to come to terms with with Baruba or Barube or True Living. It's like just because they're gone doesn't mean the next person is gonna be better.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

So never it's that's that's very true. Um but fortunately there are a couple of good coaching candidates out there. Um what comes to mind is Bruce Cassidy. Maybe Vegas gave the Leafs a uh through them a phone. Uh Cassidy generally has his teams play a possession style kind of game. He likes to generate chances off the transition, uh, very similar to to Sheldon Keefe. That was very successful, at least in the regular season here and in Toronto. Um defensively, he prefers quick puck movement and plays a defensive system that focuses more on um like uh protecting areas of the ice instead of man-on-man coverage, which is what Breube loves to play. And clearly this roster doesn't cannot play man-on-man coverage. It's just they're not fast enough, or there or there's no will to play that kind of uh um tiring kind of kind of a system, or both. It's just clearly Breube's systems are just not working. Uh so yeah, I would I hope that they would go out and hire like a Bruce Cassidy. I think that'd be a very, very good hire.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Would you rather Cassidy or Debor? I would guess those are kind of the main two biggest names out there right now.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Yeah, I wrote articles on both of them. Uh Debor earlier on in the year and then recently on Cassidy. I think both are are what are are good choices. I forget what the stats are, but I I think there's only been like one or two coaches that have won multiple cups with like different teams. So it seems like it seems so just because Cassidy and I don't think Debor has won yet, but Cassidy won with Vegas in his early on in his tenure. There's no chance, no guarantee he's gonna win with Toronto. But I think you can't go wrong with either either one of those coaches. Uh Debor in Dallas, they made the third round, what was it, three years in a row or three years within his his tenure there? It really good, good success. Uh, he knows how to play with stars. He had like Ranton in there, uh, did have good goaltending in Jake Ottinger, uh, who called him out and then kind of got fired from that. But I mean, uh coaches don't get fired because they're doing a good job. So I I feel every coach is gonna have have his wards. But yeah, I I think either or would be a would be a good choice, uh, personally.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Right. I mean, coaches, it's tough. I mean, there's only a couple that actually stick around. Everyone else is like it's a two or three year thing, anyways. You know, people talk about like, oh, we wears on his players, like especially Cassidy right now, is like, oh, he's maybe got like three-year expiration period. It's like, okay, yeah, it's like most coaches right now.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Yeah. I feel that's kind of the standard tenure. I think we as Leafs fans, we've held on to Babcock for too long, we held on to Keith for like too long. And I mean, well, Brube kind of just is in year year two. So it might still be too long.

unknown 39:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

No. Um for me, I was just thinking about it now. I think I would probably lean more towards uh Bruce Cassidy. And the only reason is uh we saw Boston in the playoffs multiple times during the Matthews era, uh we saw Cassid out coach uh the shit out of Mike Babcock in both those series just made him look ridiculous. But I think wherever Cassidy went to, when you look at the how Boston plays under him, when you look at how Vegas, uh other than this year, played under Bruce Cassidy, like those those are systems and teams that had like a good uh good team culture. They're a very cohesive culture, very winning, wanting to win kind of culture. I feel there's a reason why both those teams hired Bruce Cassidy, because he can like instill that into the players a little bit. Now, of course, as we discussed, you kind of need to have players that actually have that kind of dog in them. But I I think for that reason, I think that gives me kind of the edge over over Du Boer.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

Right. Yeah, I like Cassidy a lot too. The other the other option is like to go, and I I kind of doubt that the Leafs will do this, but like go with a first-time hire. Some people really prefer that um method and maybe going with a more unorthodox course. Like obviously Alubus comes to mind with Sheldon Keefe, but also with his current uh Dan Mews in in Pittsburgh, who's done a great job. But I doubt, I don't I doubt that will be the path. It it's interesting. I would say Lane Lambert, who was a Leafs assistant with the Seattle Kraken now, has done a really nice job. Like the Washington Capitals aren't in it this year, but a lot of people like another former Leafs assistant, Stephen Carberry. Like, so there's been like there's been some talent um behind the Leafs bench before. I don't know. I don't know. I think like it's such a I'd it's hard for me to say, having never been an NHL player or coach, what what would make a good coach? It's obviously you have to be able to connect with your players on some level. I've been listening to a lot of John Cooper interviews. He was on after hours in the last month, and uh it was interesting to hear his kind of thoughts on it. Especially as the longest tenured coach right now.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

I'm I'm convinced Cooper is like some kind of like professional speaker. Like he's just the way he's able to motivate his players is just uh insane. Uh I think McDavid or I think McDavid got a little spoiled in uh at the Olympics and he's went back to Edmonton and uh I know. Yeah, that was so funny. Uh getting really frustrated. But yeah, there's probably a handful of like of really good coaches in the NHL. Cooper is definitely one of them. Um, and I don't know why Charles are gonna get uh gonna get Cooper, unfortunately. But yeah, I I'm not sure where the lease are gonna are gonna go this summer. Uh they don't have much assets. They need to hire a president, they need to hire a general manager uh all before May 5th, or ideally, I guess June 1st, but you want to give the GM some time to plan for the draft and and whatnot. Kind of like how we how we were in 2023, you know, we're between a rock and a hard place. And it's it is unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

Yeah, I think it was the right thing to to move off of True Living, but it was definitely concerning thinking about the similarity of that timeline, like uh of like is the GM really gonna have I don't know the the time to do what's necessary. The scouts really run the draft. I I don't know how much the GM actually does outside of maybe the top pick having a preference one way or another. I mean I think yeah, the the the roster decisions are obviously gonna gonna be crucial. And are gonna have to happen soon. Uh it's not, yeah. Hopefully, like we were saying before, hopefully they've learned that they just can't be so passive and patient that the time is is now. There's not a young team that's gonna be improved. If you wait for things to get better. You know, like there's maybe the Detroit Red Wings are falling out of a playoff spot, and you could argue, hey, just hold on a bit. There's some young players on the way. Maybe next year it's going to be better. But the Leafs, that's not the case.

SPEAKER_04 44:14

That's not the case.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

The Leafs are rapidly approaching their the end of the window. Probably two in two years. Maybe if you send Matthews, maybe you send that two to four years. But uh the couppers are b are are bare. Prospects, um it's uh they're gonna they're gonna have to figure it out. And it's or here again, critical, critical off season, uh with with with no direction. It's an interesting thought I had.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Maybe a bit of re revisionist history, but do you think the window was ever open? Like do you think that do you think that the Leafs were good enough? Uh and or that maybe it's been so hard for them to perform in these big moments because they took it as far as they can go. I mean, the team has seemed pretty lifeless in some big moments. That's and they have blown some huge leads and others. So maybe, maybe they were good enough, but they just choked, or maybe they were never good enough, and they need a lot of talent before we even start thinking of windows, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

I don't think they were really ever good enough, to be honest. The only the only caveat is uh the season where they got uh Ryan O'Reilly and Noel Acharius when NIS came up in 2023. Uh that was the first time I'm like, okay, this team can actually maybe go in on a D playoff run against the first season against Washington, where they took what is it, three of the five of the five games, uh six games, sorry, out of uh to overtime. My proportion of the games went to went to over they forced overtime. So it was yeah, uh other than those two series uh those two years, um uh personally I don't think they've been good enough. I think they had they had a collection of really good players. They just the the mix just uh the combination of players just didn't work out and they needed to move off of them. Um and to your point earlier, the defense they should have moved off of off of Riley uh in hindsight as 2020. Uh the very few teams win championships when they don't have that solid number one defenseman uh anchoring the back end. And Riley's maybe any good number two or a good second pair defender, but we've never had a true number one since Thomas Caverley, Ryan McCabe, maybe. Like, don't want to date myself too much here, but it's not way.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

No, I mean it's uh I think that uh this is maybe a bigger conversation, but like I think that people don't really appreciate defensemen enough. Like, for example, it's really common for people to fuss over like or list people as like a left wing or a right wing, which I think is uh not really an important distinction yet. We're just throwing all the defense into the same bucket, it's they're not as noticeable just because they're not maybe scoring points. But when you watch the playoffs, you start to notice just how important defensemen are in controlling the game. Like you're going up against a denochara and he's there for half the the game and you can't do anything when he's there, you're like, oh wow, this makes such a huge difference. Um so I think yeah, I if if you were there was one season where Riley finished like really high in Norris voting, which was mostly to do with his offense. And he's still yeah, but there was never there was never a Norris candidate on or a perennial Norris candidate, one of the best defensemen in the league. And if you look at the cup winning teams, like you could say Florida is interesting because who would you put as their Norris candidate? I mean, they don't really have one, but they have Forzling, who's maybe their best. Uh they have had some other good ones like Eklad, I don't think people appreciate at all. Umtour was really good, but not an Oris trophy winner. Jones people clowned on, but he's still effective. So I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

But other than Jones, but other than Jones, would you say that all three of those players are better than Riley? Is that a fair statement to make?

SPEAKER_01 48:35

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, is Jones? Jones might be better than Riley. I think I think that people get uh, especially when the cap was frozen, people were so focused on how much people were making and the perceived value of that. Like right now, Darnell Nurse and Edmonton. Everyone thinks he's like a terrible liability because every time he makes a mistake, they're like, oh, we're paying this guy nine and a half million dollars or whatever it is. He's continues to be like their their shift leader, their shutdown defenseman, handling the minutes when McDavid isn't on the ice. Um he's probab probably better than Riley. Uh and yet uh everyone just has bad things to say about him. I just think it's like I to understand like what makes a good defenseman, I think takes a bit of nuance, especially because it's not obvious like a winger. Oh, they're putting up points, so we can tell. So I think that yeah, there's probably some stuff for the least to work with. McCabe, there's a lot of game there. Ekman Larson was great this season. Tanneh, I still think is really good. Carlo, for example, people don't like obviously I was would have been nice if he fought Mason Marchman. Like he's not a fighter. He's a big guy. He's not super punishing physically, but that is still a rare commodity. Like I watched enough Justin Hall on this team to like be able to appreciate what Carlo brings, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

I mean, two both things can be can be true. I mean, you could say Riley might have more innate skill than than Jones, but in terms of role on the team, Jones is probably hitting above uh or maybe at his less his ass of him versus versus Riley, who we're expecting him to be like an offensive defenseman and he's not, and he's not really good at defending, so it's kind of uh this weird um enigma that that we have on on the on the back end.

SPEAKER_01 50:36

But it'll it'll be interesting. We'll see. Like the team's gonna move off of Riley likely.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

Um I'll be surprised. He has a no boot McClara's, he loves Toronto, he has family here. Like we'll see. But maybe he's just tired, tired of the pressure and the media and and and all the craziness. But it's gonna be it's gonna be an interesting offseason. Have to find a president and GM, have to prepare for the draft, have to make seismic changes to this roster on the back end in particular, um, but also really everywhere to be honest. So it's gonna be really interesting. In their hearts mostly, yeah. But I think we should end it here. Um I think it's been it's been a very sad enough. I mean, it's been uh it's I I think we've covered everything. It's it's another critical offseason, and we're gonna we're gonna raw on another roller coaster and uh hopefully we're we're strapped in.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Mm-hmm. Oh, we'll be ready for the draft lottery. That'll be an exciting night, regardless of what happens. And we'll be excited for, I guess maybe some some hires, and we'll be excited for the merciful end of the season.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

That with that we will well thank you all for tuning in uh to this episode. Uh we love talking about Leafs, even though they may cause us so much pain both mentally and physically, but nonetheless, it's a team that we will continue to watch and just just support this this franchise through thick and thin. Um Greg, is there anything else that you you want to say? No, no, goodbye. Luci Nation, thanks for watching.

SPEAKER_04 52:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

Alrighty, and we'll see you in the next episode.